Adversity- Strength Ken Kunken

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Welcome to the Internal Shift Show. I'm Debbie

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Longo. This show looks at how the internal choices

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we make influence the direction our lives work

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and take. Today's conversation brings real experience

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into that space, exploring how internal shifts

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quietly change outcomes over time. We have a

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very special guest today, Ken Klunken. Good afternoon,

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Ken. Welcome to the show. Good afternoon, Debbie.

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Thank you. You're welcome. Thanks for being here.

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I'm just going to ask you to basically tell your

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story. if there is a traumatic event or a life

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change or anything that you want to talk about

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and what happens and what was your process, how

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you got through it and how you came out the other

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side. And the end result of this story or situation

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or example should be positive. Now I'm doing

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this podcast for a few reasons. This is a new

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podcast. One of the reasons is a big reason,

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I think, is to educate people and to explain

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to people and show people that there's a way

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out, that anything that's negative, it doesn't

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matter what it is, can always, always, always

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turn into a positive. But that's going to depend

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on the individual's mindset. Not only does the

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individual have the issue, do they want to face

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it? Do they want to say, oh, yeah. I have it,

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and then do they want to have the willingness

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to actually do something about it, do something

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to change? If they want to sit in their sick

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and suffering and be miserable, that's completely

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up to them. That's up to the individual. Thank

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you for being on the show. If you would like

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to tell your story a little bit, I would appreciate

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it. Well, I think the best way to start is to

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direct your listeners back to 1970. Because at

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that time, I was a fairly typical 20 year old

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college student at Cornell University. I worked

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hard in school and I loved sports. I was a member

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of a fraternity and I had a lot of good friends.

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And like most 20 year olds, I dreamed of leading

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a useful, productive, rewarding and happy life.

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But on October 31st, 1970, my life changed dramatically.

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On that day, I broke my neck and severely damaged

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my spinal cord. making a tackle on a kickoff

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in a lightweight football game against Columbia

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University. And in an instant, I went from being

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in the very best shape of my life to being almost

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totally paralyzed throughout my body and totally

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dependent on those around me. So I spent the

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next nine months and 20 days in various hospitals

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and rehabilitation centers. I had a lot of encouragement

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from my family that even though physically I

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had virtually no movement. As you can see, I

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still have almost no movement. I still had my

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mental ability, my intellect, and they encouraged

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me to go back to school and continue my education.

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So I went back to Cornell and through the help

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of my classmates and personal care attendants

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and my family, I completed the next two years,

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my undergraduate degree in industrial engineering

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during those next two years. and I became the

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first quadriplegic to ever graduate from Cornell.

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But it was clear to me industrial engineering

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was not the right field for me. I mean, this

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was well before the age of laptop computers.

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And based on the recommendation of a psychology

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professor, I'd been taken and elected in psychology.

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I changed my career goal and I decided to pursue

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a career in counseling. And with his help, I

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studied Counseling and Student Personnel Administration

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at Cornell. And I became the first quadriplegic

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to have earned a graduate degree from Cornell.

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And then they increased my counseling credentials.

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I went to Columbia University, where I earned

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my second master's degree. This was in Psychological

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Counseling and Rehabilitation. And I decided

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to look for a job in the rehabilitation counseling

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field. And think about this, Debbie, I now had

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two degrees from Cornell, one from Columbia,

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three prestigious Ivy League degrees. two master's

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degrees, and no one would hire me. I mailed out

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more than 200 resumes and looked for a job for

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a year. Debbie, I was even turned down when I

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have to volunteer my services. But I knew I could

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work and make a significant contribution to some

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organization. So I continued my job search, and

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finally I found one organization willing to give

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me the opportunity to show what I could do. And

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that organization was Abilities Incorporated,

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which was part of what was then called the Human

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Resources Center. It's now called the Viscardi

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Center, and they're located on Long Island in

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New York State. They hired me to be a counselor

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for other individuals that had disabilities.

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Very good. That's a pretty amazing story. Talk

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about from going to where you are to where you

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are now. So... How did you feel when you were

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going through all of this? When all of this was

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happening and you had to change, you couldn't

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walk, you couldn't move, and you were going back

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to school, you made all these decisions while

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being handicapped, basically. So what was your

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feelings while you were going through all of

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this? If you could explain. as much as you can.

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I would appreciate that. Well, it was devastating

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and about as depressing as anything could ever

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be. And it was increasingly frustrating because

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the medical personnel in the hospital seemed

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reluctant to answer any of my questions. So I

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was able to get a hold of a pamphlet that the

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rehab center put out. And with somebody turning

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the pages for me, it described based on my spinal

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cord injury, what type of movement I would have.

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And it was right on point. I have a little bit

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in my bicep, but not in my tricep. It described

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where my level of sensation would be, and it

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was right on point. I only have feeling just

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a couple inches below my shoulders and up. I

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don't feel any part of my body below that. It

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described how it would affect my bodily functions.

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And again, right on point, how it would affect

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my back, my bladder and my bowels and my lung

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capacity. Right on point. And then they had a

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page about what type of careers I could pursue.

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And the only career that I saw for my level of

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injury would be that someday I may be able to

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sell magazine subscriptions over the telephone.

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And I was devastated. And keep in mind, they

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didn't even have touch -tone phones back then.

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They were just rotary phones, and I couldn't

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even dial a telephone or take notes or write

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anything. So here I went from studying engineering

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at one of the most prestigious colleges in the

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country to the thought of maybe someday I could

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sell magazine subscriptions over the telephone,

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and then thinking even that may be too difficult

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for me. It was overwhelming. I was fortunate

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that the Viscardi Center, which is the head of

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the abilities in court, hired me to be a rehabilitation

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counselor and to counsel other people with disabilities.

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And that changed my life. Yeah, it's interesting.

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So when you were going through school and this

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is something that you really wanted to do, was

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it your calling? It seems like it was something

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that you just were born into, that you were just

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determined to do this in this way, the school

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and the degrees and everything. And how did that

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happen exactly? What was the pattern? What was

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the process? It was really difficult when you

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say, was it my calling? I was always very good

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at math. Math was always my strong point. English,

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not so much. And here I was having a tough time

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with engineering before my injury because there

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was a lot of science involved, physics, chemistry,

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material science, not just math. And I was struggling.

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And after my injury, it became almost impossible.

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for me to be working as an engineer back then.

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And for me, talking in front of a group was the

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last thing I ever wanted to do. And here now,

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I was being encouraged to change my career goal

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from what I was naturally good at, which was

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math, to a career where you're doing more speaking

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and more dealing with groups of people. And that

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was a very difficult change. And when I began

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my job at the Human Resources Center, what's

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now called the Viscardi Center, They sent me

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out to speak to various groups and organizations

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concerning disability issues non -discrimination

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and jobsite modification and It was really difficult

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because that did not come naturally to me But

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I didn't know what else I was going to do with

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my life back then But I had the opportunity to

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work at that job. I loved it It changed my life

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and it helped give me the confidence to say there's

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even more I could do So after working there for

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two years, I left that job and I went to Hofstra

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University School of Law. And when I graduated

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law school, I was fortunate to be hired by the

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Nassau County District Attorney's Office to work

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as an assistant district attorney, where I worked

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for more than 40 years. Very good. So the result

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was definitely positive. So that was kind of

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leading me in to my next question, which will

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be one of the last questions. What was the positive

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change? You talked about the school and all the

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careers and stuff that you got as the result

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of all the schooling and the degrees and everything.

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What positive changes have you made in your life

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overall due to everything that's happened? And

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we're talking about the outcome being positive.

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What part of other parts of your life did this

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affect in a positive way? What was the result

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of that? Before my injury, I always considered

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myself a bit of an introvert. And now I was forced

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to be more of an extrovert. I had to talk to

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people because I needed help doing everything

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and I had to describe what help I needed and

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ask for that help. And that totally changed the

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way I related to people and acted. So it brought

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me out of I don't know if I actually in a shell.

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I mean, here I was an athlete. I was in a fraternity,

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but I always felt. Like the best thing for me

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would be to sit in the back of a large lecture

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room, never raise my hand, hope nobody noticed

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me, to now being speaking in front of groups.

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I became for quite a while a motivational speaker,

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where I was speaking in front of hundreds of

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people and working at a job as the assistant

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district attorney, where I was appearing in court

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before juries that had packed courtrooms in the

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back. And in fact, I later became a supervisor

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where I was supervising other ADAs. But Debbie,

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I have to say the best part of my life was how

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it affected me personally. I went from being

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a very shy person who rarely have ever dated

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before my injury. I mean, I was 20 when I got

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hurt to eventually going out and changing my

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whole perspective on myself, dating a little

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bit and meeting a woman that I fell in love with

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who eventually became my wife. She's just sitting

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off camera now. Her name is Anna. And when I

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married Anna, it was in 2003, more than 30 years

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after my injury. And I was in my 50s. And lo

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and behold, Ana said not only did she want to

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marry me, she wanted to have my baby, not just

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our baby, my baby, which really seemed impossible

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being paralyzed for more than 30 years. But we

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looked into in vitro options and were thrilled

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to learn it still may be possible for me to father

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a child. So we pursued it. And on January 24th,

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2005, I was present in the delivery room when

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my wife, Anna, gave birth to triplets. We have

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three gorgeous sons, Joey, Jimmy, and Timmy.

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They're now 21 years old. They're juniors at

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three separate colleges. And Debbie, I'm leading

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a very happy life. I am thrilled to be the father

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of triplet sons, to be married to my incredible

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wife, Anna. And I would never have even met Anna.

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had it not been for my injury. I originally met

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her because she helped as one of my personal

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care aides. That's how I met her. And our relationship

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developed between employer -employee to becoming

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best friends, to a romantic relationship, to

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husband and wife. And that is truly, truly amazing.

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And definitely a godsend, so it sounds like it

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was really... really meant to be and really worth

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it in the long run. So the last question is how

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do you feel today, right now, based on this whole

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conversation that we've had? I feel great. I've

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been so incredibly blessed to have the family

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that I have. And I mentioned my incredible wife,

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my wonderful triplet sons, but I've got a brother,

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a sister, cousins, aunts, uncles. Everybody in

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my family has been so incredibly helpful. and

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support of my entire life, but particularly after

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my injury, that it's brought us all even closer

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and it's made family such an integral part of

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my life and brought me a lot of pleasure. I have

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to say I learned there's an awful lot somebody

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can do if they're given the opportunity and have

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the drive and motivation to make the most of

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it and have the right support and encouragement

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to make their goals come true. Yeah, thank you.

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That was very good for an ending. One thing that

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I would like to put in there, insert, is that

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not only that people are physically able to do

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things, right, like a construction worker, but

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to me, if you're mentally able and you're mentally

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willing, that really is what comes first because

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the mind controls the body. their mind controls

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everything we do, the way we think, the decisions

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we make and everything. So that's why, to me,

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that's the most important thing. So whatever

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the person's physical ability is or disability,

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and there's a million examples of this and stories

00:14:46.149 --> 00:14:50.570
and everything that in this story to me, right,

00:14:50.629 --> 00:14:53.460
in this podcast that we're having now. That does

00:14:53.460 --> 00:14:56.580
not matter because it sounds to me like you put

00:14:56.580 --> 00:15:02.620
your mind above everything any possible physical

00:15:02.620 --> 00:15:05.779
challenge or any type of challenge at all that

00:15:05.779 --> 00:15:09.019
you had and you put your mind above it and I

00:15:09.019 --> 00:15:12.820
think that this story is a very good example

00:15:12.820 --> 00:15:17.340
of that because That can happen to anybody and

00:15:17.340 --> 00:15:20.080
I think that a lot of people because I know I

00:15:20.080 --> 00:15:22.779
work with a lot of people like this that it doesn't

00:15:22.779 --> 00:15:25.580
matter how they are physically, is that their

00:15:25.580 --> 00:15:29.500
mind is not there, they're not present in themselves,

00:15:29.740 --> 00:15:33.080
in what they do in their daily life. Like, they're

00:15:33.080 --> 00:15:35.580
doing something and then their mind is in a different

00:15:35.580 --> 00:15:39.100
spot. It's in a different place. And they're

00:15:39.100 --> 00:15:42.279
not in tune with their mind and their thinking

00:15:42.279 --> 00:15:45.960
and their behavior. So it's like one part of

00:15:45.960 --> 00:15:48.759
your mind controls another part and the two are

00:15:48.759 --> 00:15:51.350
not connected. Different things like that. It

00:15:51.350 --> 00:15:54.289
doesn't matter, like I said, what your physical

00:15:54.289 --> 00:15:57.549
ability or disability or anything is. It's the

00:15:57.549 --> 00:16:03.110
point that the mind can do anything and overcome

00:16:03.110 --> 00:16:07.169
anything. But the first thing that I always want

00:16:07.169 --> 00:16:10.149
to do is recognize that I even have a problem

00:16:10.149 --> 00:16:12.409
because I don't even know if something's going

00:16:12.409 --> 00:16:15.250
on. I might say it's not and it really is. And

00:16:15.250 --> 00:16:19.309
then I want to be willing to do, to change, to

00:16:19.309 --> 00:16:22.730
do something about it. And that is what's gonna

00:16:22.730 --> 00:16:25.269
start to get the ball rolling. And then I could

00:16:25.269 --> 00:16:29.850
seek help. You went to, did you have any professional

00:16:29.850 --> 00:16:33.970
guidance, like maybe a psychologist, or you went

00:16:33.970 --> 00:16:36.669
to school, but did you have any professional

00:16:36.669 --> 00:16:39.750
guidance to guide you through this path, maybe

00:16:39.750 --> 00:16:42.570
to suggest that you wanted to go to school, that

00:16:42.570 --> 00:16:44.309
you should go to school like a family member

00:16:44.309 --> 00:16:46.370
or something like that? That was one question

00:16:46.370 --> 00:16:48.370
I wanted to ask. Debbie, when I was in the rehab

00:16:48.370 --> 00:16:51.090
facility, there was a vocational counselor named

00:16:51.090 --> 00:16:54.350
Joyce Mesh who encouraged me to go back to college,

00:16:54.490 --> 00:16:56.950
which seemed like a really difficult thing to

00:16:56.950 --> 00:17:00.009
do because I would need to hire a personal care

00:17:00.009 --> 00:17:03.570
attendant and find a school that I could go to.

00:17:03.669 --> 00:17:05.730
Cornell was not very wheelchair accessible, but

00:17:05.730 --> 00:17:08.670
I decided to go back there in any event and to

00:17:08.670 --> 00:17:11.349
be able to function away from home because I

00:17:11.349 --> 00:17:13.890
decided it would be best for me to return to

00:17:13.890 --> 00:17:17.200
Cornell. pick up my life where it had been. So

00:17:17.200 --> 00:17:19.339
she was vocational counselor while I was in the

00:17:19.339 --> 00:17:23.519
rehab facility. Then I had this psychology professor

00:17:23.519 --> 00:17:26.980
who encouraged me to change my career goals and

00:17:26.980 --> 00:17:29.160
pursue a career in psychology and counseling,

00:17:29.400 --> 00:17:32.180
which I enjoyed very much. But I also had a brother

00:17:32.180 --> 00:17:34.380
who was very supportive, who was a lawyer, and

00:17:34.380 --> 00:17:37.200
I used to watch him in court. And I thought that

00:17:37.200 --> 00:17:39.259
looks really interesting and something I could

00:17:39.259 --> 00:17:43.309
do. At least I hoped I could do it. So I decided

00:17:43.309 --> 00:17:46.210
to change my career goal again after working

00:17:46.210 --> 00:17:49.069
as a rehab counselor, leave the job and go to

00:17:49.069 --> 00:17:51.630
law school. I had a lot of help along the way.

00:17:51.670 --> 00:17:54.869
People encouraging me to do different paths and

00:17:54.869 --> 00:17:59.170
encouraged me to stay motivated, which was not

00:17:59.170 --> 00:18:02.269
easy following my injury. I'd been very motivated

00:18:02.269 --> 00:18:04.650
before my injury, but trying to stay motivated

00:18:04.650 --> 00:18:07.410
was difficult. But I had a lot of people in my

00:18:07.410 --> 00:18:10.309
corner helping me every step of the way. But

00:18:10.309 --> 00:18:12.809
one of the things that was difficult was that

00:18:12.809 --> 00:18:16.529
people's expectations were so low for what somebody

00:18:16.529 --> 00:18:19.349
with a disability could do back then. And that

00:18:19.349 --> 00:18:23.049
took quite a while to get past people's expectations,

00:18:23.369 --> 00:18:25.630
to show them that there was still a lot I could

00:18:25.630 --> 00:18:28.829
do despite their limited expectations and to

00:18:28.829 --> 00:18:32.109
just ask and be given the opportunity to show

00:18:32.109 --> 00:18:34.789
what I could do. And that made all the difference.

00:18:34.910 --> 00:18:38.750
Yeah, you had people motivating you and influencing

00:18:38.750 --> 00:18:43.180
you. But you took the bait. You said, this person's

00:18:43.180 --> 00:18:45.539
suggesting this. This is what I'm gonna try.

00:18:45.740 --> 00:18:48.920
I'm gonna try it. I have nothing to lose. So

00:18:48.920 --> 00:18:51.420
that's what I'm saying. That's the most important

00:18:51.420 --> 00:18:55.220
thing. Tons of people can say things to anybody.

00:18:55.500 --> 00:18:58.980
And then a lot of times I recognize, other people

00:18:58.980 --> 00:19:02.640
recognize things in myself that I don't recognize

00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:07.640
in myself. If I don't be able to have an open

00:19:07.640 --> 00:19:11.880
mind, to understand what somebody is saying,

00:19:12.000 --> 00:19:15.339
that maybe I want to change or something or fix

00:19:15.339 --> 00:19:18.400
a problem that I have or just to acknowledge

00:19:18.400 --> 00:19:21.180
it, then anybody could say anything a million

00:19:21.180 --> 00:19:24.640
times and nothing is going to happen. So this

00:19:24.640 --> 00:19:29.380
is really a great example. This podcast is really

00:19:29.380 --> 00:19:33.779
a great example of Literally, you put your mind

00:19:33.779 --> 00:19:38.039
to anything you can do anything. It does not

00:19:38.039 --> 00:19:40.920
matter what it is. It has nothing to do with

00:19:40.920 --> 00:19:44.700
what it is. The thing is the thing. That's the

00:19:44.700 --> 00:19:47.160
outside force. That's the physical thing. I'm

00:19:47.160 --> 00:19:50.140
not talking about that. I'm talking about what

00:19:50.140 --> 00:19:53.599
is going on in somebody's mind. What is their

00:19:53.599 --> 00:19:57.500
process? How did they get through it? And that's

00:19:57.500 --> 00:20:00.900
what I want to focus on. How do I make my mind

00:20:00.900 --> 00:20:05.019
strong enough and open enough and willing enough

00:20:05.019 --> 00:20:09.980
where I can take suggestions or have somebody

00:20:09.980 --> 00:20:13.900
motivate me or try to get out of the rut or the

00:20:13.900 --> 00:20:16.839
problem or the issue or whatever it is that I'm

00:20:16.839 --> 00:20:20.180
in and I could come back on the other side and

00:20:20.180 --> 00:20:23.880
my life will be great like you were explaining.

00:20:24.160 --> 00:20:26.259
You got married, you have children, triplets.

00:20:26.440 --> 00:20:29.859
that you you never dreamed it. It just came true.

00:20:30.059 --> 00:20:33.359
It was amazing. I just have to emphasize I could

00:20:33.359 --> 00:20:36.259
not have done any of it alone. I was fortunate

00:20:36.259 --> 00:20:38.700
to have the support of my family and friends.

00:20:39.000 --> 00:20:42.380
And that made all the difference. Yep. And that's

00:20:42.380 --> 00:20:45.019
another very, very, very good point, because,

00:20:45.220 --> 00:20:48.299
like I said, I need to have those people around

00:20:48.299 --> 00:20:51.240
me. But the thing is that if I know something's

00:20:51.240 --> 00:20:54.619
going on, there's always somebody there. Nobody

00:20:54.619 --> 00:20:57.559
is leaving us alone. We always have people around

00:20:57.559 --> 00:21:01.519
us. But whether I want to see that I can solve

00:21:01.519 --> 00:21:04.839
my problem or do better, then that's completely

00:21:04.839 --> 00:21:08.420
up to me. So to me, the people are always there

00:21:08.420 --> 00:21:11.740
guiding us and helping us. But it's just a process.

00:21:12.079 --> 00:21:14.799
What I go through was just a process. So this

00:21:14.799 --> 00:21:19.720
was an amazing, amazing podcast. And I really,

00:21:20.220 --> 00:21:24.089
really appreciate you being on the show. and

00:21:24.089 --> 00:21:27.430
sharing your story. It was awesome. Definitely

00:21:27.430 --> 00:21:31.150
was awesome. Yeah, thank you. As we wrap up,

00:21:31.309 --> 00:21:33.690
this conversation highlights how small internal

00:21:33.690 --> 00:21:37.230
shifts can create meaningful change. If something

00:21:37.230 --> 00:21:39.990
from today stayed with you, take a moment to

00:21:39.990 --> 00:21:42.410
reflect on how it connects to your own direction

00:21:42.410 --> 00:21:44.950
and decision. This has been the Internal Shift

00:21:44.950 --> 00:21:46.630
Show. Thank you for listening. Thank you, Ken,

00:21:46.690 --> 00:21:48.690
for being on the show. I appreciate it. Thank

00:21:48.690 --> 00:21:48.970
you.